Well said, dungbeetle!
Marvin Shilmer
JoinedPosts by Marvin Shilmer
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22
Blood Policy
by cyrano ini think the old men at brooklyn are in a bind when it comes to the blood policy.
so many jws have lost their lives from this policy that if the borg suddenly did a 180 and allowed transfusions, there would be thousands of mad family members asking too many questions and probably too many law suits.. i think they know it's a dumb-ass policy but their overpaid lawyers are probably telling them to stick with it to avoid massive class-action suits.
like everything else in brooklyn, the all-mighty dollar has the final word.
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129
MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse
by silentlambs init appears there are a few misconceptions when it comes to the reporting of child abuse.
the federal law child abuse prevention and treatment act (capta)(jan. 1996 version), 42 u.s.c.
failure to report can result in civil liability.
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Marvin Shilmer
Bill writes:
I have made Marvin and Path a standing offer yet it appears they only want information one way, I wonder why? IF this really was a search for clarity how hard would it be to pick up the telephone? Could their be an underlying motive in this mock sincerity?
There is no need to wonder why I prefer written answers to my written questions and the more public setting of this forum. I already gave the reason. The reason is because I think this discussion belongs in public view, and I am not afraid to present my questions in this more public setting, and neither am I afraid to answer here.
As I said before, "I prefer writing, and I have no problem with a public forum to express these thoughts either. As far as I'm concerned the more discussion on the subject of child molestation done in the light of day the better; if it's done in writing then all the better."
Since I am open to hearing your answers to my simple questions, the new question becomes:
Why don’t you get on with answering the questions instead of griping about the method of communication?
Another one like it is:
If you have time to write your complaints then why don't you have time to write answers?
Another on like it is:
Why do you insist on a private venue (i.e., telephone) rather than the more public one of this forum to answer questions of public concern?
The sought after clarity is of concern to more than one person. Since only one person can clarify the thoughts of Bill Bowen, how hard would it be for Bill Bowen to just plop his fingers on his keyboard and type out straightforward answers to the simple questions asked? After all, we already see that you have a keyboard and know how to strike the keys!
This discussion belongs in public view, and that's where I'll keep my part of it.
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129
MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse
by silentlambs init appears there are a few misconceptions when it comes to the reporting of child abuse.
the federal law child abuse prevention and treatment act (capta)(jan. 1996 version), 42 u.s.c.
failure to report can result in civil liability.
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Marvin Shilmer
Hi, Waiting,
When I wrote "must" I meant to imply that the action of encouraging victims to report child abuse would be required by elders, not that elders could or should try and force victims to report. After all, elders can do no more then encourage victims to report; they can't very well make them do it.
Of course, elders could report instances of child abuse anyway regardless of whether the victim is a child at the time or an adult recounting abuse when they were a child. But on those two circumstances I thought I understood Bill's position that he would report a child's story whether they wanted it reported or not (an action I agree generally with) but that he would let an adult victimized as a child have the prerogative of reporting (which I also agree with). But in light of Bill's response, I don't know now if I can believe what he wrote earlier on those matters or not.
An individual that assumes a leadership position likewise assumes an onus of making themselves clear where people have questions. It is true that Bill has assumed a leadership role regarding child abuse among JWs, and to a lesser extent regarding all child abuse. It is also true that Bill has written extensively on the subject. Questions have resulted because some people do not comprehend aspects of the issue, and in some cases questions have arose simply because of the huge volume of Bill's writings on the subject, writings which are not always well composed. This is why precise questions are asked and need answering, if Bill is interested in garnering support from those people with the questions. Frankly, he should be glad that a few are asking the questions they do because where one is willing to pose precise questions (esp. in the face of needless insults like Bill dishes out!) there are probably many who have the same question!
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129
MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse
by silentlambs init appears there are a few misconceptions when it comes to the reporting of child abuse.
the federal law child abuse prevention and treatment act (capta)(jan. 1996 version), 42 u.s.c.
failure to report can result in civil liability.
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Marvin Shilmer
Hi, Waiting!
I don't take exception to anything you've said.
I think it would be a great policy to require that elders tell families and victims they must report a situation of child abuse to local law enforcement authorities before taking the report to them or before any congregational investigation takes place. The hole I see is what should the policy be if, for whatever reason, these families and victims do not want to report the situation to law enforcement authorities but are asking for help from elders nevertheless? Should those elders just turn their backs on victims that want whatever they want from those elders? I can tell you I'd have a tough time doing that.
This is what I seek clarification as to what Bill has proposed. Would he have elders turn their backs on victims with that disposition or would he have them do whatever they can to help them, including hopefully helping them to a point where they could and would report the crime later if not sooner? Just when I thought I was beginning to sort through his voluminous presentation and understand what's in his mind in terms of recommended policy, he continues/resorts to insult instead of straightforwardly answering simple questions! This defies good sense, to me.
As for Bill's non-clerical status, that is beside the point for my quandary. Because Bill's presentation is unclear to me I was hoping to find a parallel between his personal actions and his proposal for WTS policy in order to understand what exactly he is saying. The working theory was "a person will practice what they preach," and my main item of concern had to do with what Bill means when he speaks of mandatory reporting, not the difference between what he would have clerics do versus an average citizen. Details of a proposal are what make a proposal. If someone is unable to see the details, or refused in their attempts to understand them, then they can hardly be expected to agree with them.
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129
MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse
by silentlambs init appears there are a few misconceptions when it comes to the reporting of child abuse.
the federal law child abuse prevention and treatment act (capta)(jan. 1996 version), 42 u.s.c.
failure to report can result in civil liability.
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Marvin Shilmer
Dear chezza,
I appreciate that Waiting called our attention to your situation. Thanks, Waiting!
Elders that act as you described are doing something horribly wrong. It only underscores just how disingenuous and amoral the Society's child abuse policy is, and the training that goes with it.
Hopefully your daughter (and family) will find and get the kind of help needed to deal with things and heal up, and that this will lead to reporting both the direct victimizer and those accomplice elders for their sorry actions.
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129
MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse
by silentlambs init appears there are a few misconceptions when it comes to the reporting of child abuse.
the federal law child abuse prevention and treatment act (capta)(jan. 1996 version), 42 u.s.c.
failure to report can result in civil liability.
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Marvin Shilmer
What?!
It seems Bill does not want to answer on this forum, on the thread he started, one remaining basic question I asked to clarify an understanding. I don't understand this. Why undertake an initiative expressly to create better understanding and clear up supposed misunderstandings and then refuse an explicit request to do that very thing? I don't understand that sort of behavior either.
I can only speak for myself but, given the nature of the subject and the advantages of helping potential allies to better understand for sake of possibly combining efforts to the same end of helping victims, it seems to me that the two minutes it would take type an answer to the simple question I asked would be well worth the investment of time. It must have taken more time to type the diatribe Bill just posted! As for taking the time by voice versus in writing, I prefer writing, and I have no problem with a public forum to express these thoughts either. As far as I'm concerned the more discussion on the subject of child molestation done in the light of day the better; if it's done in writing then all the better.
Help me out folks, am I misreading or overlooking some fundamental detail here, or is there something I'm missing when saying Bill's responses above do not represent a blanket mandatory reporting. What am I missing here? Bill's statements look pretty clear on the question of whether he practices blanket mandatory reporting.
Bill,
As for all your accusations against me, they deserve as much attention as I give them after this sentence.
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129
MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse
by silentlambs init appears there are a few misconceptions when it comes to the reporting of child abuse.
the federal law child abuse prevention and treatment act (capta)(jan. 1996 version), 42 u.s.c.
failure to report can result in civil liability.
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Marvin Shilmer
Hello, Bill
Thanks for your comments. The more you explain yourself and answer questions the greater chance people have to understand specifically what your comments mean. This is what questions are designed for, which is what I did above. Why you apparently take exception to questions as though they somehow represent a threat to you or the work of helping victims is something only you can understand (if even that is possible!). No amount of explaining will make me understand that.
As I understand it your proposal would be that JW elders be directed to act as you would. According to what you described above, as it relates to reporting, you would react somewhat differently depending on circumstances. As follows:
- A child reports they are victims of child molestation:
You would immediately report what you know to the police.
An adult reports they were molested when a child:
You would strongly advise the victimized individual to turn the pedophiles over to authorities and provide whatever assistance you could toward helping them do so.
Given the straightforward scenarios above, I would agree that your actions would be the most appropriate. But your responses would not represent a blanket mandatory reporting. What you have described is almost identical to what Pathofthorns and myself have been saying from day one. Maybe now we finally understand one another.
I would press for one clarification to a variation of one of the scenarios above. It is the same one I asked above on this thread, but I will ask it again here in different words.
If presented with a situation where a minor came to you and said they had been abused but persisted that they would not talk about their experience to anyone who would automatically report the matter to authorities, would you offer them help on the condition of leaving the prerogative of reporting to them or would you turn them away?
Having directly helped quite a few victims of child abuse myself, a simple straightforward and unambiguous answer to this question is important to my understanding of your views.
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129
MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse
by silentlambs init appears there are a few misconceptions when it comes to the reporting of child abuse.
the federal law child abuse prevention and treatment act (capta)(jan. 1996 version), 42 u.s.c.
failure to report can result in civil liability.
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Marvin Shilmer
To all, a question:
If an unidentified child comes to one of you and says they are a victim of abuse and needs help but is unwilling to discuss the problem if their story will be reported automatically to authorities, will you help the child or turn him or her away? If you explain to the child that you believe it is in their best interest to report any allegation of child abuse regardless of how they feel and yet they insist they will not talk about the subject or cooperated with anyone who would automatically report their allegation, what would you do?
Why have you answered as you have?
A similar question with some context:
Assuming the WTS one day invokes a policy that elders should ALWAYS encourage that victims of abuse should report the crime to authorities, then,
If a child approaches an elder and says, “I want to talk about being molested, but I am unwilling to do it if law enforcement must be notified of who did it to me,” should the elder turn the child away or provide them with whatever help they could otherwise give? In answering this question keep in mind that the child approached the elder, not the other way around. If the elder turns down offering whatever help they could have because of mandatory reporting and the child never approaches anyone else for help, who has been protected? Then who would have an opportunity to encourage and strengthen the child to a point where they would turn in their abuser?
Why have you answered as you have?
Path asked:
I will ask you directly, when a victim comes forward with their story to Silentlambs, do you Bill Bowen contact the authorities if the victims have not yet done so? Or do you allow the victim to make that choice? If victims knew that if they told their story to you, you would contact the authorities irregardless of their wishes, do you think you would be contacted by more victims or less victims?
The closest thing to an answer from Bill I could find:
I have talked to many victims who have never reported their abuse, I simply encourage them to talk about it to counselors, close friends, or report the matter on the sl website. The more they learn they can speak out the more likely they are to report the crime.
It appears Bill does not practice automatic reporting of child abuse allegations himself. If this is true then maybe Bill is correct, maybe we don’t understand it when in the past he has asserted that the only good policy for elders is that it be mandated that they report all allegations of child abuse/molestation, without further ado. Of course, this still does not answer the last part of Path’s question; a question that deserves close consideration by those who would insist on mandatory reporting no matter the feelings of the victim.I think my response would be similar to Bill’s. I would encourage victims to talk with anyone they felt comfortable with (including some JW elder they might have confidence in) hoping they would receive healing assistance to a point where they could cooperate with law enforcement officials in identifying and prosecuting their victimizer(s).
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50
Response to Pathofthorns
by silentlambs ini have watched the intentional effort by pathofthorns to defend wt policy and create misinformation regarding the silentlambs effort.
are you being paid by wt for your lies?
why do you create boundaries for silentlambs and question them when you know as well as i that we do not stand or take that position?.
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Marvin Shilmer
Hi, ARoarer
Your opinions are very valuable ones, and sharing your personal experience undoubtedly helps many more feel the same strength of conviction as you have. As for where our opinions appear to differ, I think we are closer than you may believe.
In most cases I would agree with you that automatic reporting of a child abuser is in the best interest of a person. The only instance I would disagree is when a person (a child or adult abused as a child) wants to get help but, for the time being, refuses or avoids help if it means automatic reporting. I hardly see how you could disagree.
Would you turn a child away who needed to talk about scars of abuse and getting help because their condition was that it not be reported unless they later chose to do it? I couldn’t turn away a child or adult in that situation, and I don’t think you could either. What good have we done if we turn away a victim? At least if we make ourselves available and offer whatever help they let us give then we would have a golden opportunity to fortify them and help them realize power they have over their own life, including the ability to turn in whatever criminal scarred them in the first place. Again, I hardly see how or why you would disagree.
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50
Response to Pathofthorns
by silentlambs ini have watched the intentional effort by pathofthorns to defend wt policy and create misinformation regarding the silentlambs effort.
are you being paid by wt for your lies?
why do you create boundaries for silentlambs and question them when you know as well as i that we do not stand or take that position?.
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Marvin Shilmer
I want to add a piece of information a local physician gave me about mandatory reporting and allegations of child abuse. She says when a patient needs to deal with psychological damage from child abuse but is concerned about mandatory reporting, she stops them in their tracks and gives them relief by saying, "That's no problem. I can't report what I don't know. So if you don't want me to report the person who damaged you then don't tell me the name. Just call him "whatever" and let's concentrate on how you feel and get to work making you better." She says quite a few take up her offer and quite a few of those heal enough in a relatively short period of time to see the value of reporting the criminal and build enough stamina to go through whatever the process requires.
So, as it turns out, mandatory reporting laws can be sidestepped by professionals easy enough if they understand the law correctly and see that reporting might not at the time be in the best interest of a victim.